Whatever his atheistic shade of naturalism (and there are many varieties out there), the skeptic must present a justification for morality in a mechanistic universe that arose from impersonal matter. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.
47 comments
Nope, all we need to do is to realize that we are social animals. Social animals have a behavior system for cooperation. As our brain functions got more and more advanced, our behavior system increased. TaDA! Morality.
The justification for morality is that we, humans, prosper most by using our resources for the common good. In order to do so, we create an environment where antisocial behavior is deterred by on the one hand punishing it when it happens, and on the other hand ingraining it in our children that it is not to be done.
A society that has and enforces a moral code is a society that is able to spend its efforts on self-improvement, rather than internecine conflict, and has a better chance of prospering. Therefore, according to natural selection, those societies become more common until eventually they edge out competing, anarchical societies entirely.
There, done. What do I win?
Morality is the product of sentient beings functioning within their societies/communities/tribes. We know sentient life is a product of a "mechanistic universe", simply because we already know it exists here on Earth.
It's the biblical OMNI-everything creator-being who exists beyond nature that is actually what is IMPOSSIBLE, by its definition.
Well, it depends on what you mean with "morality" as the term has been mudied quite a lot. If morality is an eternal code of what is wrong and right, then of course not. Because nothing is eternal, not even time. But if morality is only the basic positive/negative data set for ethics, then all we have to do is consult the survival instinct of every human and simple math to come up with a multitude of ethical codes (utilitarianism, nihilism, egoism, pragmatism, hedonism, etc.).
Like many a fundie, goodness is a struggle for Henry, how the heck is it even possible. If left to his own devices, Henry would be the epitome of a malicious being.
Goodness. It does not compute. Unknown concept. Only a fantasy Sky Daddy can cause me to approximate a behaviour that vaguely resembles not being evil.
The skeptic doesn't have to do jack shit. The whole point of skepticism is that you can reject claims that are unjustified without knowing the origin of everything. In fact, even if you don't know ANYTHING you can be skeptical of certain claims. For example, I'll bet you don't know exactly how the Pyramids were built. However, I doubt you'd believe someone when they say ancient aliens built them with tractor beams. By YOUR logic, you as a skeptic would have to explain exactly how the Pyramids were built otherwise you have to believe they were built by UFOs. Do you see now why your logic is screwed up?
> THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.
Considering that your God probably does not exist, it must have already been done, because you do it every day. Therefore, it's not impossible.
Didn't even have to bring up a counterexample to prove you wrong.
You will notice the free world is the part of the planet that shed adherance to the church and enacted goverments of the people, with the church protesting every step.
You can say there are still people who follow the church but the point is THEY AREN'T FORCED TO OBEY THE CHURCH and the church had to change to the new dynamic.
I have no doubts that had the church remained in Power we'd have seen no democracy or freedom, your Founding Fathers of America saw that too.
Ironically, unless you're Catholic, your religion wouldn't exist in the Western World, the Reformations only became possible after it's reign was broken and some kings and the masses rejecting it.
A good set of ethics is good for society. A strong society is good for survival. Case made.
Now, you prove God exists.
No. He/she doesn't. Someone who makes an "is" statement about the universe doesn't need to justify it with an "ought" statement. And no, I don't believe in some cosmic, supernatural morality. Morals would only apply to sentient life, which for now is only on this planet.
depending on how broadly you define "morality" (how about, "set of guidelines for what constitutes acceptable and/or unacceptable behaviour") it might not be limited to only humans, or even vaguely sentient creatures. my dogs understand "do this", "don't do that", and display guilt when caught breaking the rules.
(ironically, THEIR moral rules are imposed by superior power from on high --- their pack leader, to wit me, is their "god". there's still only so much imposition i can do, there's no changing the fact they're dogs and will act like it. at least i hope my instructions to them are a bit clearer than the bible...)
bees, having found a food source, return to the hive to communicate what they found and where using the most perfect method of interpretive dance. they don't HAVE to do this, the hive would likely survive if each bee did its own exploring; it just improves the overall efficiency of the explorers. so what makes a bee go to that extra effort? can something with a "brain" the size of a pinhead be said to have a code of ethics?
if bees stretch things too far, try naked mole rats. a somewhat similarly structured society, only in rodents. the caste system and breeding restrictions get enforced rather violently, but there's no denying that there's a code of "you're not allowed to do that" there --- even if "that" is so much as a worker rat thinking to produce the pheromones that might turn it into a fertile queen.
COEXISTENCE! - HOW DO IT WORK? ... DERP?
Mecahnical Robot-Man will jump in his flying saucer and beat me up if I don't behave. You don't believe in Mechanical Robot Man? I wrote it down, so it must be Truthy-Truth! Why are you mocking my beliefs? Stop persecuting me!
You can justify anything if you insist that others believe your bullshit.
Morality comes about because people live in a society, not in isolation. We create agreed-upon codes of conduct in order to get what we want without resorting to barbarism. People who deviate from those agreed-upon behaviors are looked upon with disdain or imprisoned depending on their violations of said code.
you start in a small group of hunter/gatherers by saying "no one kills Fred today, because Fred knows the poisonous berries, and we all like berrries. Kill george instead, hes useless.
Then we expand on who to kill, maybe saying , dont kill anyone in our village, go over the hill and kill them.
and so it goes until we as a society say "Just dont kill anyone".
As a christian you need to explain why your absolute morality is summed up as "Do what God tells you when he tells you"
Yet somehow a being who created Space, Time, and reality existing before all those things and creating our universe with a word is not impossible?
Really if something created reality and is not part of reality then what is it? Not Real like God.
hurting people is bad, therefore, i'm not going to do it.
wow, that was easy as fuck. i thought he said it was impossible?
Yeah, because the solid logic of operating a society where people are treated fairly and violent and destructive actions are outlawed is just such a far out concept that no one in history could ever come up with it without the fearmongering of an invisible boogieman. By the way, if Judeo-Christian-Islamic 'morality' is so vital to the survival of a society then how is it that there were tons of ancient societies that thrived and lived peacefully long before your absurd religions came into existence? By your rationale they should have been destroyed almost immediately by their evil ways.
Ethical behavior predates the evolution of humans.
"In The Bonobo and the Atheist, renowned primatologist Frans de Waal argues that moral behavior in humans is not predicated on religion."
Lots more books and articles on this; the search tern is evolutionary psychology.
a mechanistic universe that arose from impersonal matter.
So eloquent, yet so wrong.
Just because one may have a way with words doesn't mean one knows about what the fuck they are talking.
Humans arose from impersonal matter*. Humans invented morality, along with a lot of other ideas. That's it.
*as opposed, one assumes, to personal matter?
When everyone's an asshole, everything is an abyss of suck that renders life unenjoyable. When everyone's a sociopathic murderer that would leave others to die, society is unable to survive. When society cannot survive, our species dies.
Do I need to use smaller words?
In the universe you think we live in, the only objective definitions of Good and Evil are "They're whatever God says they are."
And in your holy book, God said that massacring an entire world of life was Good. Murdering entire nations and taking their land by force by His command was Good. Putting people to death for breaking holy laws and defying the priesthood was Good. Any further justification was only added after the fact; they were expected to obey not because good things would come of doing so, but purely because your God (supposedly) told them it was expected of them, and they would be punished if they did not.
This is exactly the same level of morality and ethics a six year old child has: "Do what you're told or Daddy spank."
A. I don't like to be hurt. If I hurt others, they are more likely to hurt me. Therefore, I should not hurt others.
B. Being alive is better than not being alive. Eating is good for staying alive. If we work together we can kill the large meat-beast and have lots of meat. If I try to kill the meat-beast alone, it will most likely kill me. Therefore, we should work together as a group.
There you go. Two justifications for morality that don't depend on a supernatural being. Now, please justify why we should let you be part of society, since you require threats to keep from acting like an asshole.
It's getting old having to reiterate this, but: acting "moral" purely because of fear of punishment is not true morality.
Ethical behaviour is good for the survival of social species - humans, for example.
Huh, that wasn't so impossible after all.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.