(Arguing against Annhilationism)
Responding to Ronnie's latest above: I was speaking from a pagan's point of view. If there won't be a final accounting for my sins, why should I repent of them and be saved? Why not live it up, knowing that God will merely annihilate me, rather than make me suffer as I have made others suffer? From nothing into nothing? Most pagans believe that already. Are we to tell them that they're right, that all that religious talk about hellfire and eternal damnation is just rot, and that an eternity without God and Christ is no big deal? Are we not comforting them in their sins? A strange form of evangelism, to be sure.
And yes, I do believe in degrees of punishment in hell, just as I believe in degrees of reward in heaven (Rev. 20:11-25). The greatest torment will lie in being separated from the presence of God by one's own choice, forever.
14 comments
1. Assumes that non-Christians believe in the Christian God
2. Assumes that non-Christians merely reject Christian morality and have none of their own
3. Assumes that, lacking Christian morality, everyone is all amoral (or immoral) hedonism all the time, with no cares for anything else
Your ignorance and lack of imagination is not an argument against someone being non-christian or against tolerating other religions.
We non-psychopaths have this thing called a conscience, we have empathy, we have respect. We WANT to treat others as we want to be treated. We're not comfortable with "live it up" if it means we leave the world a worse place due to us.
From egg and sperm to worm-food. From something into something else.
Nah, being separated from the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn will be an even greater torment.
Common thread on Atheist Experience Phone ins.
Usually they ask the caller if that's the only reason they don't steal, rape and kill and most the time they say "yes, why wouldn't I?"
To which the reply is usually and on the money: "then you're a bad person. and a good example of your religion not teaching good morals or ideas" because most people with no benefit of religion know those things are wrong and don't want to do them. I would add that ALL Christianity allows you a loophole, you can do ALL those things and ask and be forgiven for them. I actually think that's an incentive for them and it's no mistake that the majority of American Christians think belief in Jesus is ALL that's required for heaven and nothing else matters, this is fundie doctrine.
If you are not and have never been a "pagan", then you're reading a lot into it that doesn't exist. And if you are using it as a synonym for "atheist", you're wrong on both the definition and the principle. Most people, of whatever religious persuasion, would prefer to live in a manner that won't get them into jail and won't make enemies of others. Humans are a social animal, and we care how others treat us. Therefore it matters how we treat others; I'd have expected a Christian to understand that.
You don't need either heaven or hell to behave yourself decently to others. Correction: I don't need them. Apparently you do, and like any other donkey, need both the carrot and the stick.
Why would a pagan accept your Christian belief in God and eternal reward/punishment?
And plenty of nonreligious, non-Christian people lead good, moral lives without worrying about a final accounting of their "sins." Many people enjoy being good people just for the sake of being good people. Life is so much better when you don't treat everyone like shit, because those people who do usually end up miserable.
And if God wants me to be in his presence, he'd better start making his presence known. So far it's been 46 years of nothing.
"And yes, I do believe in degrees of punishment in hell,"
Well, that's stupid. Mark's not a math major, I see.
Rita Rudner has a joke about a friend of hers who was in labor for 36 hours.
Rita: "36 hours? I don't even want to do anything that feels GOOD for 36 hours."
What difference would 'degrees' of punishment have in Hell? It's eternal. The least uncomfortable punishment you can imagine will still last for all of eternity, right?
That shit's going to get old FAST.
It's meaningless punishment. You don't get a second chance. If you repent your crimes after an hour in the burning lake or after ten thousand years, you're still there, still burning, with no end in sight. No chance to promise you'll never do that again... It's just straight-up revenge by a psychopath.
So whatever differences you might imagine between the punishments of Hitler and someone who was Christian but never went to Church, that difference divided over a million years, is effectively zero. And a million years is just the beginning....
The greatest torment will lie in being separated from the presence of God by one's own choice, forever.
And one of the good parts is being separated forever from you.
For those who don't know, Annhilationism is one of three popular views of the afterlife in Christian Dogma next to Eternal Torment and Universalism. It, along with Universalism, was the most prevelant belief among early Christians before the church came into power, adopted and promoted eternal torment viewpoint.
What the Annihilation viewpoint is, as oppossed to purify and correct in Hell (as is Universalism) or the mainstream eternal torment view, is that God will destroy the souls of the unsaved and they will cease to exist. While it contrasts the idea of "age lasting corrective punishment" that Universalists believe (and comes up when you study the language) being Annihilated is seen as a more merciful view than God torturing one forever and is a form of eternal punishment.
Now, what I'm curious about - While I can get behind the idea of fundies not liking universalism, what kind of person would advocate eternal torture specifically ? If God is supposed to be just and merciful, and Annihilation is a form of merciful punishent, how does that not meet the fundie statisfaction ?
Why not live it up, knowing that God will merely annihilate me, rather than make me suffer as I have made others suffer?
Knowing God, he could still make your death the most lengthy unpleasant experience filled with humiliation and agony. Even if it was painless, I don't see why killing countless billions of human beings makes God that much better. He would still be a greater monster than Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan combined.
Oh and Hell is infinite punishment. You wouldn't be suffering on the level of your victims, but instead suffer more agony than the combined suffering of all living things multiplied throughout eternity. That would be an unjust, disproportional punishment no matter how you slice. The only being that I could conceive of deserving that kind of punishment would be the Christian God himself for dishing that cruel punishment to countless helpless human beings that he created.
The greatest torment will lie in being separated from the presence of God by one's own choice, forever.
Your "Hell is separation from God" argument only makes sense with anti-theists, idiots. It dosen't even apply to Atheists, because Atheists aren't choosing to separate themselves from God, because they don't believe any God exists to be separate from. I'm sure all those devoted Catholics, Jews, Mormons, 99% of Protestant denominations, Muslims, Hindus are all deliberately worshiping God the wrong way through their choice. Because they want to be separated from God, whom they love and worship constantly. By being raised in a different religion from the correct one, they are "choosing" to be separate from God. That's why they waste their time going to the wrong churches, because they just like pissing God off. Right.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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