www.discussion.theguardian.com

disgustedofTunWells #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

(He's being serious, not a Poe sadly)

Frankly most of the world were indeed better off under British rule which was really quite benign. Take a look around now and see what happens to the countries that are now independent.

I read recenly that there are people in Hong Kong who want the British to return.

It's too tiresome to refute all the writer's statements about the "brutality of British rule". He blames us for slavery yet it was Britain who abolished slavery first!

Very lazy journalism indeed.

DonH #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

(He's talking about the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre)

So where are the pictures of the "10 000" killed in Tian an men as widely and absurdly reported by the lying Western media???? (A figure notably avoided in the above piece with the weasel words about "numbers still unknown" (what, 40 years later, with the whole world's press on the scene?) - weasel words because nobody died in Tian an men and the relatively few deaths around the square were caused and provoked by the violent attacks of the laughable propaganda-described "peaceful democratic demonstrators" on the state forces and police, including some truly horrible lynch killings of young soldiers and police, dropping boulders on their heads eg (see Guardian at the time) , or burning alive in a personel carrier.

The entire Western press eventually conceded everyone left the square unharmed - inlcluding the shamefully mealy mouthed BBC John Simpson). Now the lie is repeated again with suitable innuendo and lauding of "brave" dissidents. Incidentally the tanks stopped for the man - they did not "crush" him which is the implication always left. Just the opposite, their actions were highly civilised and retstrained.

shimmer1 #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

The only documentary evidence which you present is the same old canard that Shakespeare was writing after 1604. There is no evidence of this. Plays and the Sonnets were published after 1604, but there is nothing to indicate date of authorship no matter how hard Stratfordians twist the facts. It seems that Stratford had returned to his home by the end of 1604 to resume his career as a dealer in dry goods. He never staged a play for his beloved townsfolk, never seemed to own a book, and did not see to his children's education.

You can understand the scepticism. The fact that 60 names have been put forward as actual authors is testimony to the widespread dissatisfaction with Stratford as the author. But I don't expect Stratfordians to see the light soon; his connections to British nationalism have obscured his writings such that some attempt to read in them things that were never there. Contrary to Stratfordian belief Shakespeare was not a champion of the commoner but rather an apologist for feudalism. He was unconcerned with the hardships of the self-made man that Stratford represents; rather he was consumed with the problems of the nobility, mostly royal succession.

Stratfordians have converted the author of the works into a kind of Santa Claus who requires a suspension of logical thinking in favor of a belief in a kind of genius that more resembles freakism then anything else. Copernicus faced the same type of doubts, but eventually his reasoning became the standard. You can laugh at Oxfordians now, but your grandchildren will laugh at you.

ManchePaul #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

Ridiculous assertion. Very few boys went to a grammar school. The one in Stratford had one room and one teacher, which is the sum total of all that is known about it. No one knows who attended the school, and there is no reason other than wishful thinking to suggest that the boy Shakspere or however he spelled his name went there.

Most of those commenters sneering about the question of the identity of the actual playwright are just repeating assertions without facts and received ideas without reflection. Read the bloody literature - there is a lot of it - and then decide whether or not the Stratford man wrote the plays. And ask why the plays were not connected to him until a long time after his death. All the attribution stuff is just conjecture, The inverted snobbery of the more abusive commenters is absurd: no one is arguing that the Stratford man could not have written the works because of his class, just that there is no evidence whatsoever that he did, and a great deal that suggests he didn't.

But actually looking at the evidence is far too much of a challenge, better just to make statements as you do. Read your comment again, and think it through. Not a fact in sight, is there?

Rowan Walters #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

Playing Devil's Advocate here, it sounds as though the only real breakthrough is that the existence of a Will Shakespeare from Stratford has been confirmed, as has his association with the theatre via the reference to him as "the player".

I have yet to read the book itself of course, but this article certainly doesn't provide any details that would prove beyond reasonable doubt that said Will Shakespeare, "player", was the author of the massive oeuvre of genius that has come down to us bearing his name. The existence of William Shakespeare of Stratford has never been in dispute, nor has the fact that he was associated with the theatre - at least insofar as the case for Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, as the real author, is concerned.

Perhaps the book itself provides further evidence, but it seems improbable to me that a man who had never left England could have shown such familiarity with foreign locales like Verona - all of which, incidentally, de Vere is known to have visited. Or that he could have the extraordinarily broad knowledge of law, medicine, languages, protocol and court life, etc etc that are evident in the works of Shakespeare.

It doesn't seem to me that the hypothesis that the man from Stratford actually wrote Shakespeare's works has been proven.

Karl Wiberg #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

It seems neither McCrum or this "scholar" have any conception of the true case for Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. To me, once you look into it, it becomes clear fairly quickly that the Oxford candidacy is the only one that makes any sense, and that the grain merchant makes zero sense.

But you have to do a little work (i.e., read) to understand it. If you are to bother at all, start with Mark Anderson's "Shakespeare" By Another Name. To those wedded to the traditional authorship attribution, your passion and love for the Bard are admirable, but it's time to allow your minds to inquire freely. Speaking from experience, it may be uncomfortable at first, but sooner or later you'll marvel with fresh wonder at the newly revealed vistas--literary, historic and biographic.

howard16 #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

Surprise, surprise, A Shakespeare academic, beholden to the multbillion dollar Shakespeare industry comes out against Edward de Vere. If there is any conspiracy in this case, it is the collusion of the academic establishment and the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust to stifle discussion on a serious and complex subject. Is it possible that Mr. Shapiro is concerned about his reputation and perhaps even his livelihood?

The Stratfordians have only three arguments repeated endlessly by their parrots in the news media who it seems are averse to thinking for themselves.

1) Oxfordians think that only an aristocrat could have written the plays.

Wrong. The accusation that Oxfordians are snobs is old and tired and obscures the real issues. This debate is not who could have, should have, or would have written the plays, but about who did. It is a question of evidence and any individual with an open mind willing to do some research will find it very clear that Edward de Vere is the author of the Shakespeare canon.

2) Oxford died in 1604 so he could not have written plays published years later?

Wrong. Dates of performance or of publication do not tell us the date of composition. Since we do not have the manuscripts, dating of the plays is conjecture and supposition. The astute professors and Stratfordian directors cannot explain why Shake-speare did not edit his own plays for publication during his years of retirement.

The Sonnets were published in 1609, while Shake-speare was alive, yet the Dedication refers to the author as “ever-living” — which means that the author is dead, but his works are still immortal.

3) There is a ton of evidence proving that Shakespeare was the man from Stratford.

Wrong. There isn't a shred of evidence that ever connected the author Shake-speare to William of Stratford. During his lifetime, no one, repeat no one has ever claimed to have met the man. Supposed records either refer to non-literary court records about the Stratford man’s legal problems or they refer to the author by his pen name, “William Shakespeare."

One must have a sense of curiosity, true open-mindedness, respect for evidence and the capacity to think critically when appropriating this issue. That is apparently lacking in this so-called Shakespeare "expert.” Mr. Shapiro ascribes everything to imagination as if a person's life experiences could just be thrown out of the window when writing plays and poems of depth and complexity filled with passion and humanity.

Concluding that a man who had little or no education, whose children were illiterate, who never left any writing other than six unreadable signatures with his name spelled differently in each one, who never traveled outside of London, who spent much time and effort engaging in petty lawsuits, who could not read books in French, Italian, or Spanish yet used untranslated material as his source material, who never left any books in his will, who left no letters, no correspondence, who did not elicit a single eulogy at his death was the greatest writer in the English language is not "imagination". It is fantasy.

Jaibo #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

I suspect that most of the very belligerent posters calling for the prosecution of HIV+ people who don't disclose are frightened men who have a lot of sex with strangers without wearing condoms but who don't wish to take responsibility for their own actions and health, therefore are keen to violently blame anyone who might have the virus which they could catch through their own behaviour.

Given that many people who have casual sex don't even ask the name of the other person, it is a bit rich to expect that other person to inform them of their state of health!

Jaibo #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

I can only speak from a gay man's experience. But in the case of HIV, I don't think there's any blame or victims when the sex is consensual; for example, I would suspect that the vast majority of gay men in London know that "10% of gay men in London have HIV". This doesn't stop a considerable percentage of the remainder having unprotected, casual sex. But guess what, a number of them I have heard speak or post on message boards think the responsibility for transmission is entirely with the 10% who are infected. What one would find is that transmissions are usually by people who don't know they are infected, and don't want to know, for the reasons I have outlined above.

It is as pointless to blame the person who transmits HIV as it is to blame the cake-shop counter staff for diabetes.

Julian McCrann #conspiracy discussion.theguardian.com

[Comment under "Kim Jong-nam killed by VX nerve agent, a chemical weapon, say Malaysian police"]

How do we know this wasn't a foreign intelligence agency doing this brazen act to drive North Korea apart from one of it's few diplomatic allies, Malaysia, to isolate North Korea further.

What have the North Koreans said about the case? From what I can see they are denying all responsibility.

Four people of different nationalities have been arrested and seven North Koreans are wanted in connection with the attack. Malaysian police have not directly pinpointed North Korea as being behind the death.

On Thursday, North Korea accused Malaysia of having a “sinister purpose” and collaborating with South Korea over the killing. In the first report from state-run KCNA news agency since the attack, the government accused Malaysia of breaking international law by conducting autopsies on a diplomatic passport holder and withholding the body.

“This proves that the Malaysian side is going to politicise the transfer of the body in utter disregard of international law and morality and thus attain a sinister purpose,” it said.

It seems to make ZERO sense to anyone that thinks about this why North Korea would want to bring such negative attention to itself and drive itself further into isolation.

ZERO sense.

Cui bono? Who benefits from North Korea's isolation?

ID0808324 #racist discussion.theguardian.com

[Commenting under "Thousands of Haitians fleeing Dominican Republic stuck in camps"]

For over 200 years they have been waiting for a miracle to rain down from the sky

Enough is enough

If you can't build your own country then quietly dissipate like smoke

So easy to put the blame on others

What's keeping them from building their cities and infrastructure?

The Americans, the EU, the UN, the Dominican Republic?

Haitians will not hesitate to blame the Vatican and Pakistan if they had too to justify their unjustifiable misery that they have inflicted on theirselves for more than 200 years

That's the only truth about Haiti

So stop feeling pity for those who do not deserve it

MentalKenny #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

[Commenting under "Rhodesia issues ‘scorched earth’ threat – archive, 1966"]

Ian Smith was a true patriot, a hero. Eternal respect. The British hurt the white race more than many other hostile tribes, the Boear war and their foolish stance against the Germans in the Second World War(I love the song by No Remorse - The War was Wrong)

Rainborough #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

[Article "Forget Fidel Castro’s policies. What matters is that he was a dictator"]

@onu labu

oh don't go breaking Jeremy's heart.

There are harrowing examples of governments coming to power under capitalism and being overthrown by force or political subversion instigated by the US ruling class when such governments attempted to take a decisive left turn.

There are however no examples of decent, egalitarian societies being built in countries which preserved intact the largely illusory freedoms that characterise liberal democracy. Notable among these is so-called freedom of the press, which in practice under capitalism largely consists of allowing a rich, self- serving minority to dominate the media system and pollute the public mind with whatever lies, slanders, trivia and illusions best serve to sustain the grip on wealth and political power of the ruling class.

PerspectivesPlease #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

[Comment under the article "Developing world leaders pay respects to Castro, their champion during cold war"]

A man of unsurpassed courage, high principles and a true leader of a country who devoted his entire life to build a better life for its people despite oppressive opposition by neighbor the US.

Some of his greatest achievements were to produce plenty of food to Cuba's people, give a high standard of education and provide them with healthcare to the envy of even developed nations. Cuba's agricultural programs are highly developed, so much so that many developing nations send their officials for training to Cuba.

Almost every developing nation has medical professionals trained in Cuba. During the recent Ebola epidemy in Sierra Leon, Cuba alone sent over 450 medical professionals, while the US sent the military to build tents that was all over TV as 'aid' to that country.

The demise of S. Africa's apartheid system owes much to two world leaders, one was Fidel Castro and the other was Col. Muammar Ghaddafi of Libya.

Developing nations will never forget his example to live with dignity as nations.

GloibalTeacher #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

South Korea was rebuilt with the class that collaborated with the Japanese and it prospered through the Vietnam War in the similar way Japan revived its industries in the Korean War, reversing US policy that wanted it merely to make party hats and other trivia. If you talk to North and South Koreans there is the same cynicism about their governments and a dislike of the American presence. King Il Sung was very much respected but not his son and grandson. if the Americans withdrew from South Korea without losing too much face, it would probably be highly beneficial. They are bitterly resented in the north for splitting the country in two in 1945 by abolishing the unity government, preventing elections the communists would have easily won, wrecking land reform, intervening in what the north regarded as a civil war 1950-53, helping to crush peasant risings, having a perpetual hissy fit for not winning the Korean War, and bolstering a corrupt semi-fascist regime in South Korea into the 1980's. Even top US commentators believe that if the Americans (UN) had not intervened, the country would have been unified under communist rule and then mellowed achieving a general level of prosperity not as high as South Korea but similar to China. And you should have a long hard look at how South Korean MP's get elected and what happens to young people who say "Hey, let's talk to North Korea." Want to bea school teacher? Great - hand over the $30,000 first and we will give you a position." "You want a holiday and dislike working in the evenings and be on call at weekends? For such disloyalty you will never be promoted." "Sexual harassment by the boss? What's that?" And South Korea has the highest percentage of alcohol consumption.

Schnellmann #fundie discussion.theguardian.com

[on a pregnant 10 year year old rape victim being denied an abortion]

If you accept that the child in the womb is a human being and not essentially different from one outside of the womb then the picture is not as clear as abortion advocates make out.

If there is an abortion there is a 100% chance of one life being lost. If the girl goes ahead with the birth then there is a risk that she and/or the baby will die. Although the birth is risky the probability of her death is much less than the certain death of the baby in an abortion.

This is certainly a dreadful situation for the girl, to have been raped and now bearing a child by her abuser. There is no way of making that right. But killing the baby, who is innocent, is also not right and in my view the greater evil.

For anyone who watched the film Precious, do you think she should have had abortions to rid herself of the children forced upon her by her own father?

ScippioAmericus #racist discussion.theguardian.com

The iron blooded men and women who forged Britain must be rolling over in their graves over the decline and unavoidable destruction of British culture and sovereignty. The Muslims are going to conquer Britain and Europe without a shot. Like a Trojan Horse, mass Islamic immigration and birth rates are sure to drown out your culture and erase a 1000 years of history. Good night Britania for so it is written and so it shall be.