[On if theft for survival is just]
No. Get a job, save up. Don't have a job or are homeless? Too many food banks, soup kitchens and churches with resources. There is always another way. Theft is for crooks and the lazy.
33 comments
I see nothing wrong here at all. Yeah I feel for people who steal to live and I would give them food so they don't have to steal it but stealing to survive is still wrong. Really if this is Fundie then so is the old saying "give a man a fish and he is fed for a day, teach a man to fish and he is fed for life."
@creativerealms
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." -Terry Prattchet, may he rest in peace.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Problem is: Who is willing to teach others to fish? If there is no one to do that (which is often the case) it ceases to be an alternative. Even if other options are available, if a person doesn't see these as attainable they aren't really options. Not many people have the willpower to starve instead of stealing food. So yes, stealing for survival, especially if it doesn't endanger the survival of others and as long as it isn't done while other options are available (which includes being attainable) is understandable in my opinion. And that coming from an otherwise relatively strict opponent of utilitarism.
Tough call. On the one hand, there's not always a shelter or kitchen around (and its a nasty little open secret that quite a few discriminate based on various factors like sex or sexuality) and churches don't all offer such services. On the other hand, the fact that your life has taken a turn for the worse, whether your fault or not, doesn't in any way justify you targeting others.
I'm gonna go with not fundie. Callous but not fundie.
Yeah, there are always people to help others at their lowest points, and theft ALWAYs hurts someone other than the perpertrator, so I can't disagree with this.
It depends on the situation. If you're just poor or homeless, no, you still shouldn't steal.
If you've been shoved into a prison camp who's goal is explicitly to kill you? Then stealing's not just necessary, but encouraged.
@THX 1138
Really? Is there always someone? I mean I'm against theft in general too, but does it hurt a shop-owner that much if someone steals something to eat? Especially in relation to the thief dying otherwise? And what about people in less developed countries where help definitely isn't available to most? Starvation doesn't happen on itself. The categorical imperative sometimes has to bend in cases of fighting for survival, otherwise you would never be allowed to lie (not that great if a, say, evil government is asking you whether you hide any kind of hunted minority in your house and you do) and never be allowed to go to war (which would be great but will sadly never happen). I don't say that theft is a good thing. And if alternatives are there it shouldn't be done. But it is understandable if people fight for their own survival and putting these people on the same level as "crooks and the lazy" is in itself lazy thinking. Let's see how the OP would handle nearly starving to death himself.
I am significantly more okay with someone stealing food to survive than I am with bankers and corporations stealing from the middle class to get more rich. :/
But I would prefer a stable government outreach that has the soul purpose of getting people back on their feet. Making them rely on unsteady resources like churches and soup kitchens just means there's not enough to go around.
There is always another way.
Well Tearsa, what is your solution to the problem then?
What, you don't have one? Then shut the hell up.
Forgive me, but if there are resources, food banks, etc, then you wouldn't need to steal -to survive-. Isn't this scenario specifically assuming the absence of other options?
Stealing is bad. Full stop.
However, we live in a country that simultaneously wants to demand the poor work harder and harder, and refuse to give them any of the help they may need in order to work. (transportation, health care, etc.)
If we're talking some brats stealing makeup, or a rich dude cheating people out of their homes, then yeah. It's bad Don't do it. But when it's obvious the people in power will do everything in their power to prevent you from living here legally, why bother trying? I won't advocate it, but I can certainly sympathize.
@ChrisBP747
We have soup kitchens for a reason. When I worked at a clothing store, a poor dude stole some clothes("for his kids" I imagine) and a friend of mine who was the shift manager had his pay docked because of it.In between all the chirches, YMCA's, Goodwills, various soup kitchens and charities, and government welfare, a law abiding citizen in the US(which is where I imagine the OP to be from) should have enough support that they don't need to really steal.And you know what, If I was a grocer and someone stole even a pack of Boarshead Ham, i'd be pissed because to my knowledge, he could have just stolen it to feed himslef.We have laws for a reason.
I disagree. It's not "fundie", but with shelters closing, and even churches losing funds to feed the poor, stealing will be the only option soon. It's happening in my city now. They are closing the shelters downtown,and stopping people from giving out food (they lied to my friends who were handing out food, saying they "needed a permit to vend" even though there was nothing being sold). This quote may be true in cities that help their homeless, but ours is shooing them away.
@THX 1138
"We have laws for a reason!" is almost as good an excuse as "I've only followed orders!" in my opinion. And have you misread my comment on purpose? I told you that if other options are available, stealing is of course wrong. But not every country is as lucky as Germany or the USA (and I actually doubt that everyone has access to these services at all times in those country even today). If you were living in a country undergoing extreme instability, hyperinflation or war, you will not have many options left besides stealing, which is horrible, but unfortunately true (especially if there is a ruling class which hoards all the ressources of the country for themselves). Even you will probably have to resort to it to survive under those circumstances, since the only other option is often "die" and somehow people don't like to do that. There are very specific circumstances in which killing is ok too (self-defence for example if every other option is exhausted or you just don't have any), why should it be different for stealing?
Once again, to make the point perfectly clear: Stealing is GENERALLY wrong. But under very specific circumstances, if your life depends on it and you don't have any other option left, it is preferable to dying. And that was the question the OP and you answered to dismissively: Whether stealing is ok under those circumstances.
EDIT: If what RiJayden says is true my suspicion is already correct.
ChrisBP747
No shit. However the US is no where nearly as bad as Mexico or zim right now, so my point still stands that people propert rights should still be respected.If i was a grocer, the excuse "I was hungry" would not be enough for me to not turn them into the police.How the hell would I know if he just wanted some tomato soup without having to pay for it?
@THX 1138
No shit back to you. You have again missed the point. The original topic was (and I cite the above text) "On if theft for survival is just". And the OP just directly put the right to property over the right to live (which is bullshit) while you seem to have forgotten about what the topic was, focussing on theft if it wasn't necessary to survival.
By the way, it is your right to call the police if someone steals from you (if it was something miniscule, as a grocer I would probably leave it at a warning though if the thief doesn't try it again). That doesn't mean that the thief didn't have legitimate reasons for stealing. Law isn't equal to ethics. There are unjust laws and moral rules which can't (or shouldn't) be enforced by law.
ChrisBP747
Dude, i'm on topic, i'm just saying that theft for survival may be necessary, but don't call it just, because the consequences can and will hurt someone, just not you.
@THX 1138
If it is necessary it is just. You are hurting people with "just" things all the time, like defending yourself from someone violent by using violence if there is no other option (even if it's just pushing, it can have consequences). And yes, stealing can be just (as in based on what is moraly right) under specific circumstances. This includes survival if there is no other option. Even that has limitations (taking from someone else who is nearly dying and needs it isn't just for example).
In the end I guess it depends on your idea of what "just" means. If it means "always following the catgorical imperative" and "every principle has to be absolutely uphold" then you are right, stealing is never just. But as I explained, you are running into a whole lot of problems by that logic.
Let's agree to disagree here.
I'm still refuting the arrogance of the OP in stating that there is "always another way" and that theft "is for crooks and the lazy" though since you yourself admitted that it is sometimes necessary.
Try this scenario:
You are being chased by an axe wielding maniac, you search for an escape route and see an open door, you run in and discover that it is someones home but nobody is there. Lying on the table is a gun, this being America after all. Would it be morally ok to use that gun,- it's not yours and you do not have permission to use or even touch it-, in self defence ?
To the people defending theft here, just remember that we're not talking about dashing Robin Hoods stealing from the rich. More often it's the poor stealing from others who are either poorer then them or people barely above them. If you needed food and were willing to steal, would you be okay holding up a store? Or breaking into a home?
It's this kind of thinking that allows street gangs to claim themselves as "champions of the poor", when, in truth, they live by exploiting the people around them.
Too many food banks, soup kitchens and churches with resources.
....which you tend to shut down!
Most poor are hard-working. Many CAN'T FIND A JOB AT ALL! Many have a medical/mental condition that prevents them from working!
Many can't SAVE money because they only have enough for food and shelter and nothing more. Often; They have to choose between food OR shelter!
The Social Safety Net is to SUPPLEMENT and not necessarily replace a job. That "Welfare Check" will allow someone to be able to pay for food, shelter, clothes AND be able to save up. It's a "boost" a "helping hand".
You are the ones in favor of removing the bootstraps you want them to pick themselves up by! You are ANTICHRIST! SHUT UP AND HELP THE POOR, YOU LAZY GREEDY CHEAPSKATES....JUST LIKE JESUS COMMANDED YOU!
@Insult to Rocks
I already stated the VERY narrow circumstances under which stealing is just, namely if survival is at stake, there are no other possibilities and you don't take from someone who is in a similarly bad position. That has nothing to do with street gangs or Robin Hood.
Even if you don't agree with me on the just part, you can't deny that under certain circumstances it is even necessary to steal. The point is not to defend stealing, the point I was trying to make is that people who steal are not always "crooks" or "lazy" as the (well fed I imagine) OP states.
Theft is for crooks and the lazy
Trump University.
You can fool all of the people some of the time: which is just long enough to become president of the US.
image
And it was the same - Wiggy's electoral base - who considered Hillary Clinton to be part of the crooked 'Elite' - Big Business - who lobby Washington...?!
At least those who shoplift food have a basic need to do so: because they have no money.
A certain omeone thinks that someone else already worth billions ripping off others - via an unaccredited 'university' which was nothing more than a scam - is just .
But I guess that someone else considers others to be nothing more than 'Money Banks' when he's feeling a little 'poor'.
And someone is making themselves look more and more like NeoMatrix Mk. II. Keep it up, and you too will find yourself quoted.
@Anon-e-Moose
I think we both know your little passive aggressive threats won't convince me that you own this site and can quote whoever you want.None of what I said about this quote appears to have really upset anyone in the comments except you, and if actual philosophical discussion appears to be fundyish to you, perhaps its time you took a break from this site.
P.S:I'm sure I can dig some shit up on you that makes you look like NeoMatrix,too.
@creativerealms
I agree with you there too but it's amazing how many of these rants come from people who don't really have a job themselves. The Joe the plumber, Zimmerman the cold blooded killer, Bristol Palin and that guy bitchin at the WORKING Walmart cashier about how he pays her way and medical insurance while he's at Walmart in the middle of the afternoon.(could be shift worker but I doubt it since it does seem the only people that bitch like this aren't working)
It sucks that someone has to steal to survive, it sucks that people are homeless, job less and have no options. Soup kitchens, food banks, churches these help to a point but that point is often not enough.
Also sadly church help often comes with conditions even the salvation army which I believe does a lot of good work has a long way to go (helping at need gays isn't the same as supporting their life style you can do one with out the other.) Many have far more conditions.
And yeah secular charity options exist and are getting more common but are still sadly rare today.
If someone needs to go though restaurant garbage bins or even steal food for their families its sad yes but you can't hold that agianst them.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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