But let's put that aside for the moment and consider a (non-biblical) scenario in which God alone hardened Pharaoh's heart. Suppose that God in this instance chose to override Pharaoh's freedom of choice. Would that prove that people in general have no freedom of choice? Of course not. You have committed the hasty generalization fallacy. If God wants to override the freedom of choice that He gave people in the first place, He can do that. (I'm not suggesting that He does, only that He can.) But how does that in any way suggest that people don't have freedom of choice at other times? So your argument just doesn't make any sense. In the Christian worldview, people have some degree of freedom of choice. In the secular worldview, what one chemical accident does to another is predetermined by the laws of physics.
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And how would you know that your god is or is not "hardening (or softening) your heart?" Do you think that your god is honest enough to let you know it? Your bible gives no indication that such an assumption should be made. Therefore, from a biblical standpoint, freedom of choice is a sham.
In the Christian worldview, people have some degree of freedom of choice.
"Do what I say or else" is not freedom of choice.
I'd rather go to Hell than grovel before your petty tyrant.
Every time I read one of Jason's quotes I'm glad I work by the laws of physics and not by the drool-lubricated laws of ethereality. Also, I have a little smile inside because not every waking second can be lived in serious contemplation of the nonexistent.
And, it's nice to see that some people can still work by imaginary insubstantialions according to the laws of dribbleology, even if only at the level of an automaton.
Once you postulate an all-powerful magician who can do anything, there's nothing further to discuss, because you can just make up whatever you like. But the issue with Pharaoh is not whether God could override his free will. It's whether, having done so to Pharaoh's detriment, He can claim any moral legitimacy.
When someone does something evil of his own free will, moral condemnation falls on him. When he is coerced to do it against his will, the condemnation falls on the one who coerced him. If you shoot someone in cold blood, that's your fault and you're jailed for it. If you are forced to shoot him because he's going to kill you, the blame falls on him and the law lets you go. Your God may not be subject to the human concept of morality, but that doesn't mean we have to admire Him for it.
Suppose that God in this instance chose to override Pharaoh's freedom of choice. Would that prove that people in general have no freedom of choice? Of course not.
But it would take away your answer to the question "Why does God allow evil to persist?" If God was willing to interfere with Pharaoh's free will so he could show off and kill more Egyptians. why not interfere with the free will of rapists and murderers?
consider a (non-biblical) scenario
Oooooo.... using something that ISN'T in the Bible for once?
in which God alone hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Um, the Bible quotes God saying "I will harden Pharaohs heart" not "I will assist Pharaoh in hardening his own heart"...
Jason, you just lied...
If God wants to override the freedom of choice that He gave people in the first place, He can do that.
Yes, he does... and he does it if you choose to do something different to God's Plan. Freedom of Choice is not any kind of Choice or Freedom when the only "choice" is "Do what I want you to do or I'll make you do it anyway".
Oh, and since God knows EVERYTHING THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN no-one has any freedom of choice because it's all following the "script" God wrote before we were created...
The doctrine of free-will isn't found anywhere in the Bible, and was adapted from Greek Philosophy. The Bible makes it clear that humans are merely pawns utterly helpless to either be vessels of grace or vessels of wrath, and should be unquestioning if God's whim decides that they should be saved or sent to Hell. It doesn't matter if humans' free-will is violated, the only thing that matters is that God's glory is served. God doesen't even give us the dignity of threatening us, he chooses whether we will obey or disobey his commands. Either way, his greater glory is served.
If you're a believer, your attitude is that you should be fine with this arrangement.
Why is it so many christians rant about free will but then will say everything happens according to their gods will or is a part of his plan? I am assuming that most never really think about what they actually say. Jason instead of spouting a bunch of words that mean nothing, think about what you are saying.
If you've only got freedom of choice sometimes, or to a degree, or when God chooses, then that isn't real freedom of choice. It's as simple as that.
"In the secular worldview, what one chemical accident does to another is predetermined by the laws of physics."
Total non sequitur, besides which, who actually believes this?
"Suppose that God in this instance chose to override Pharaoh's freedom of choice. Would that prove that people in general have no freedom of choice? Of course not. You have committed the hasty generalization fallacy."
No-one is arguing that God hardening Pharaoh's heart means no free will for anyone, so in fact you are committing a strawman fallacy. What it does mean is that God is willing to override our free will if it suits him, and then moreover proceed to punish us for his actions.
This says a great deal about God's supposedly perfect justice, but is also relevant to the "problem of evil", where it is often said by theists that evil is purely the result of our free will. If God is willing to intervene in the case of Pharaoh to commit evil (and if it wasn't evil, why was Egypt punished?), he is not apparently willing to do so to prevent evil, even of the most egregious or widespread kind.
Hence, God is able (as evidenced by his own interaction with Pharaoh), but not willing (as evidenced by the many great evils in history), so as Epicurus said, if he existed he would be malevolent.
In the secular worlview, he have evidence. You have only mythology.
But let's put that aside for the moment and consider a (non-biblical) scenario in which the bible is a myth. In that case everything you said is fail.
"consider a (non-biblical) scenario in which God alone hardened Pharaoh's heart."
Well, considering how even the likes of you - who supposedly know more about your own 'belie fs' than Professors of Theology - can't even pin down which pharaoh we're talking about (and the 'inerrant', 'inspired' Word of God can't even give that exact, precise historical information, which says so much for the rest of the Bible's veracity as supposed 'Truth'), just the very notion of a 'non -Biblical scenario' involving a pharaoh (which one, again, Jase...?!) and a Peer Reviewed historical document mentioning a nonexistent God which can't even prove himself to the satisfaction of said Peers (1 Thessalonians 5:21 [KJV]) is the least of your problems.
Because, doctrinally, seeing as you are positing a non -Biblical scenario, then the lack of 'Free Will' (which God 'hardening the heart of [which ?!] pharaoh' in the Bible itself further emphasises this Scriptural/Philosophical FAIL) further fucks up & exposes the FAIL of your own doctrine, and thus the justifications of your 'belie fs' right to exist.
...and besides, the Heart is just a blood pump. Nothing more. If it is 'hardened', then you'd be dead instantly, and the heart has as much neurophysio/psychological - and therefore neurochemical - effect on the rest of the body, as the Spleen does to my genitals: Nothing . [/Reverse-Bible Literalist]
That's me he's replying to (ie. whose post he commented inside of). He seems to have closed off his blog for now. One has to log in to comment, and no one it seems actually can log in.
So, I posted my final reply to that shit here:http://www.wearesmrt.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=117672#p117672
Excerpt
Huh??
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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