god created us sinless but the only way to do this was to keep us knowledgeless. He told us not to eat from the tree of knowledge and after being tempted by the serpent eve did. thats when man started to sin, because they had acquired(sp) free will. man chose to sin god did not create us to sin, we brought sin upon ourselves. god then seeing that we lived lives of sin sent jesus his only son, to come save us from our will to sin. so in actuality we jumped in the river and jesus is here to save us.
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God created us to sin because he already knew it was going to happen. Ah, that funny thin (possibly nonexistent) line between predestination and free will in the Bible...
God threw us in the ocean and waited for a metaphorical night, expecting most of us would be picked off by tiger sharks, before bringing in the rescue crew.
Well, I'm glad we CHOSE to get free will!
GET IT? BECAUSE THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
So in actuality we opened the hatch to the river [which is only openable from the inside] and jumped in, and God couldn't pull his out Himself, so He sent Jesus, who is the only sinless person because He has no free will?
Your dogmas are so bizarre and contradictory.
Who the heck even believes that free will exists at all??
If Adam and Eve didn't have free will and had no knowledge of right and wrong before they ate the fruit, why did God hold them responsible for eating it? And why did He hold the whole human race responsible for what Adam and Eve did? If your great-great-great grandfather was a Satan-worshiping child molester, should you go to hell too? And why did God free humanity from the "curse of the fruit" for torturing His son to death? If people nailed your son up on a cross to die in agony, would you reward them? This whole thing makes no sense.
"thats when man started to sin, because they had acquired(sp) free will. man chose to sin god did not create us to sin, we brought sin upon ourselves."
If God made us with free will, he must have given us the capacity to sin. If God is omniscient, he knew what would happen due to giving us free will. If God is omnipotent, he could have made existence in such a fashion that mankind is not confined to the black-white "free will" of choosing between sins and not-sins (whatever those are!). And if God is all loving and all good, he would not punish humans for using "free will" wrong in a universe where external and internal influences, also created by God, drive you clearly away from accepted uses, with no explicit influences or even information regarding appropriate uses.
" so in actuality we jumped in the river and jesus is here to save us."
If by "jumped in the river", you mean that we were born in the river and have been subjected to its currents hence, then you are right. And, if by "jesus is here to save us", you mean that Jesus is a drab gray lifesaver thrown by God into the river during the dead of night, with God being one of a thousand gawking onlookers, each one holding out their hands and calling out for us, and saying that everyone aside from themselves will not save us, then you may very well be right about that also.
That seems to be the reason why fundamentalists are so opposd to scientific knowledge, especially if it crontradicts the bible.
If only all of these fundamentalists would go the whole hog and reject all knowledge not within the bible, which would involve computers, cars, as well as modern medicine and everathing that has to do with electrical power.
I mean, look at the Amish, they do it the right way, not choosing which knowledge they like and which they don´t like, but rather rejecting almost all modern knowledge and living a backwards rural lifestyle ;)
"man chose to sin god did not create us to sin, we brought sin upon ourselves."
So, just to clarify things, your deity creates a garden and puts two innocent simpletons in it. He the creates a Tree of Knowledge, which he doesn't want the people he created to eat from but knows full well they will because he's omniscient, and places the tree in the garden. Your deity then creates a serpent, which he knows will tempt Eve and that Eve will fall for it because, once again, your deity is omniscient. He then allows the snake into the garden. Correct so far?
So you have two people who wouldn't know "wrong" if it smacked them in the face with a 2x4, a tree they're not supposed to eat from but is mysteriously placed in the garden anyway and a sly serpent that has plans to trick the less than worldly woman into eating from the tree. And your god made all this happen. Yet it's somehow our fault that everything's gone to hell, so to speak, because your deity allowed it to happen even though he had foreknowledge that it would.
I don't know about you, but I'm not buying that. The blame can only be placed squarely at the feet of your deity.
something that's always bothered me...
of course, we all know this myth is just another form of the most common theme in christianity; questioning any authority figure is wrong and evil and no good can possibly come of it.
Stupidity for Jebus!!!
Explains a lot innit.
If we didn't have free will, why were we accountable for Original Sin?
Furthermore, if God is some pandimensional being to whom space and time are irrelevant, why do we need to keep redeeming ourselves for our sins? If Jesus supposedly died for our sins past, present, and future, why must we continue to grovel for forgiveness at the feet of this megalomaniac you call God?
if we gained free will from eve eating the apple then god would have to have previously ordained that eve would eat the apple. How else could she seemingly go against teh will of god without free will? Further, going against god would be a sin so again he either didn't create people sinless or he purposely made eve eat the apple to set things in motion such that we thought we had brought sin upon ourselves rather than it having been the plan all along.
Why would god have created a forbidden tree of knowledge in a garden designed only for adam, eve, and some animals? For this to make any sense at all god must have set them up for failure.
Wait... God created us without free-will, and wanted us that way since it's the only way we could be sinless, yet Eve exercised her free-will to choose to eat the apple... and eating the apple gave her free-will?
Two points... 1st, how could she exercise free-will if she didn't get it until after she'd eaten the apple?
Major failure on God's part. God created us in a way to sin. We might've been sinless in the beginning, but did he seriously not foresee what we would do? And if he did, why not grant us the wisdom not to sin even with free will?
Also, does this mean that since God knows everything, God is a sinner? According to karatekid's logic, it is.
So, let's try this out.
God created the universe, and everything in it.
God is omniscient.
At the very least, God intentionally created the potential for sin, knowing that it would happen.
But your god, according to your book, put the tree there in the first place. If he truely wanted us to be sinless, he would have never put the tree there.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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