Master Samwise #fundie disqus.com

BeWhoYouAre:
I've had an issue with this idea that we choose hell since I first heard it expressed out loud. It's above all dishonest because it's actually a self-righteous Christian saying "you disagree with my belief which is the only thing that can save you, so you are instead choosing hell." When it's entirely reasonable that you might simply reject hell as a concept entirely. The other side doesn't like that answer so they dish back this thing of "yes hell is real and it's there and you don't believe me so you must want to go there then."

Master Samwise:
I think your disconnect is that you seem to disbelieve in an objective moral order. I mean, let's just put the God question aside for a moment and look at the underlying philosophical difference here. For a person who believes in an objective moral order i.e. right and wrong are objective principles that are discovered through reason, not created by it. From this perspective, you comment about the supposed self-righteous Christian would seem laughably insane. Whether or not you agree or disagree does not change the reality that violations of the objective moral order occur. It is like saying that you won't die when you jump off a building because you don't believe in gravity.

This is where, I think, atheists and agnostics and anyone else trying to play gotcha with Christian goes wrong. You are trying to argue against a whole system of metaphysics that, believe it or not, can go on for days about morality without a mention of God without actually engaging the first principles of that system. It would be like a scientist trying to disprove Newton without ever studying Newton beyond his laws of motion.

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