WorldGoneCrazy #fundie

WorldGoneCrazy #fundie christiannews.net

Here is a secular proof for the existence of Hell, your future home should you not repent:

1. Every natural innate human desire has a corresponding satisfying object in reality. (e.g., thirst has the object of water, hunger has the object of food, etc)

2. All humans possess a natural innate desire for objective moral justice to be satisfied.

3. Therefore, objective moral justice exists.

4. In some cases, objective moral justice is not satisfied in this lifetime. (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Mao, unrepentant abortion "doctors," abortuary deathscorts, etc)

5. Therefore, objective moral justice is achieved in an afterlife.

6. Therefore, Hell exists.

What will it take for you to admit you were on the wrong side of the world’s worst holocaust in human history? Look in those dishes – those are the arms and legs and heads of dead babies floating there. If that is not enough to turn your heart, what is?!? What WILL it take?

44 comments

old comment by Conservative Atheist

I'll give you 1 as a handicap, Mr. Crazy.
2 is false, just look at serial killers, psychopaths, and mass-murdering dictators (e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Amin, The Kim dynasty, and more).
Since 2 is wrong, 3 does not follow.
Since 3 is wrong, 4 is vacuously true; If there's no objective moral justice, then it can't be satisfied ever.
5 is a huge leap, even if we assume everything you've said up until now is true. First you have to show that an afterlife exists.
6 is another leap. Even if there's an afterlife, who's to say it is the Christian Heaven and Hell? Moral justice could be carried out by having those who committed sin be reincarnated as insects or in the Hungry Ghost world.

And then you take a turn into the usual fundie whinging about abortion. Gone crazy indeed!

old comment by TB Tabby

What will it take? How about you start showing some of that concern for the children who are already here? Children are starving to death in the most prosperous country in the world because of extreme wealth inequality and cuts to welfare, dying because of easily treatable illnesses because their parent chose to pray for them or use bullshit alternative medicine rather than go to the doctor, driven to suicide by bullying that is ignored by the same schools that call the SWAT Team on children with inhalers because it's drugs...but I seldom hear a pro-lifer showing concern for them. The right to life, in their eyes, begins at conception and ends at birth. Start showing a little activism for the children already here, and maybe I'll consider that you really are about protecting children and not just slut-shaming.

old comment by SpukiKitty

Sadly, if you remove the moralizing, religiosity, prudery and anti-choice B.S., this is my worldview exactly.

And I feel awful to associate myself with this scumbag. There are no "Karma Houdinis" in the big cosmic afterlife scheme of things....but abortion doctors, women who get said procedure, LGBTs, non-Christians, etc. should not be lumped with the obviously Inferno-bound like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Pinochet, Qadaffi, Hussein, Vlad The Impaler, Ted Bundy, Jimmy Savile or Fr. John Geoghan.

Matthew Shepherd, Dr. George Tiller & Leelah Alcorn are happy in Paradise.

And Inferno is a TEMPORARY punishment. It's purgatorial. It cleanses as well as punishes. Even Hitler & the other creeps will become renewed souls who are forgiven & Paradise-bound.

old comment by Ebon

1) Define an "objective moral justice" without saying "what god says" because that';s the most subjective morality possible.
2) You haven't proven your second premise.
3) You really haven't proven that this all leads to your god being the right one.

In my belief system, there is a corner of hell set aside for the truly lost and do you know what their punishment is? They have to experience life as every person they affected after which, if they're still unreformed, their soul is destroyed. Hitler has to experience the lives of the (roughly) eleven million people he killed. And you have to experience the life of every pregnant woman you harassed, every word, every judgmental barb you threw at her.

old comment by Swede

1. What is the satisfying object of sexual desire?
2. No, most sane human beings realize that moral justice changes a bit with the situation.
3. No, it doesn't.
4. I'd say that objective moral justice is never satisfied in this lifetime. (What about unrepentant anti-vaxxers and/or anti-Obamacare people?)
5. There is no evidence for an afterlife.
6. No, it doesn't.

It will take solid, verifiable scientific evidence. What was the worst holocaust; spontaneous abortions? The extermination of the Native Americans? The Flood?

Most aborted embryos don't have arms or legs yet; they're just a head-tail thingy with bulbs that will soon become arms and legs.
image

What will it take for you to engage in born children instead, in child poverty, children whose parents can't afford medical care for them, children who don't have access to clean water, etc? What WILL it take?

old comment by Yossarian Lives

How does any of this prove Hell? Having a desire for people to face justice in the afterlife when they evaded it in life doesn't mean that this will happen. Many people have a material desire for wealth, but this doesn't mean that they will have their desires matched in the afterlife, even if they worked meticulously for the opportunity and have been a good egg, giving to charity, caring for the sick etc.. The leap from 4 to 5 is massive, and there is no evidence that we will face justice after death, so you should provide some if you want us to take your claims seriously.

Also, you should take some time to define this objective justice that everyone believes in. It seems to vary from culture to culture, even from person to person.

"Look in those dishes those are the arms and legs and heads of dead babies floating there."

I don't know about your kitchen, but I've just looked at last night's dirty dishes in mine and they are congealed with the scum from yesterday's evening meal. I'd be concerned if the muck had morphed into some sort of life form.

old comment by Malingspann

"2. All humans possess a natural innate desire for objective moral justice to be satisfied.

3. Therefore, objective moral justice exists."

BUT, can the believers in the existence of 'objective moral justice' all agree what it is? No arguments between, say, those who think that OMJ means having the death penalty and those who think OMJ means NOT having the death penalty because it's 'barbaric'?

"4. In some cases, objective moral justice is not satisfied in this lifetime. (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Mao, unrepentant abortion "doctors," abortuary deathscorts, etc)

5. Therefore, objective moral justice is achieved in an afterlife."

FAIL ALERT! This depends on the *existence* of an afterlife! And no, 'the Bible says it exists!' is NOT evidence that there's an afterlife.

old comment by Hasan Prishtina

All humans possess a natural innate desire for objective moral justice to be satisfied.

Human history shows that, no, humans don't have an idea of objective moral justice and, no, there are plenty of cases where humans showed no wish to see justice done. Or do you claim that Jesus was put to death as a result of innate natural justice being done? Or, maybe, that God manipulated Pilate and the crowd wanting the release of Barabbas, overriding their innate desires? Perhaps you have also forgotten that your religion is supposed to see humans as innately wicked, or are you a heretic?

3 doesn't follow 2, 5 doesn't follow 4 and 6 doesn't follow 5. But keep trying.

old comment by

This sounds so much like the bullshit that William Lane Craig spouts.

Let's just say for sake of argument I accept you your conclusion that hell exists (I don't, really)

You're still billions of light years away from proving that it's YOUR hell, the hell of YOUR SPECIFIC RELIGION.

Is it the Judaic hell?
Is it the Zoroastrian hell?
Is it the Greek Hades?
Is it the Christian hell?
Is it the Islamic hell?
Is it the Hindu samsara?
Is it the Tibetan bardo?

Go on, prove it is ONLY the hell of your specific religion, and couldn't possibly be any of these others.

It's like "proving" that Bob owns a silver 2010 Honda Accord with 132,536 miles by saying

-Bob has no handicaps that would prevent him from possessing a drivers license.
-Bob is of legal driving age, therefore he could possess a drivers license
-Bob isn't in prison, therefore he could possess a drivers license

Therefore Bob owns a silver 2010 Honda Accord with 132,536 miles.

How could you question such "logic"?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Okay. Submit that 'secular' proof for Peer Review.

Because, short of said 'proof' including detailed diagrams, formulae, equations etc for the building of a working Dimensional Portal Generator which enables one to enter this 'Hell' to see for ourselves, then return safely to determine if your claims are correct, then the worst tortures of the Cenobites (in the "Hellraiser" films) will be as nothing to what said Peer Reviewers will do to your 'proof', WGC. >:D

Because that's the only thing it'll take for we Atheists to accept whatever you say. Also, my tap/fridge, secular Rule of Law, Saddam Insane/Muammar Gaddafi, you haven't shown us proof of the 'Soul's existence, nor a working Dimensional Portal Generator, and the heart is just a blood-pump. And in that order. NEXT!

old comment by CuriousAndMoreCurious

1. Every natural innate human desire has a corresponding satisfying object in reality. (e.g., thirst has the object of water, hunger has the object of food, etc)

Yes but just because we desire something does not mean we will get it. A man dying of thirst my never get water

2. All humans possess a natural innate desire for objective moral justice to be satisfied.

Many people desire justice. Like the water above, it is not always aquired

3. Therefore, objective moral justice exists.

No all people want justice for the same things, so the desire is not objective but subjective

4. In some cases, objective moral justice is not satisfied in this lifetime. (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Mao, unrepentant abortion "doctors," abortuary deathscorts, etc)

Yes, some people escape justice. It suck but it happens

5. Therefore, objective moral justice is achieved in an afterlife.

Does not follow. See above. There is no proof of afterlife outside you desire for one

6. Therefore, Hell exists.

Again does not follow. That you would desire something does not affect reality in any way

If I was marking this for a philosophical proof there would be red lines through everything

old comment by Dizzy Dripping

1. The desires listed are not actually desires- they are needs. There's a difference. Without food or water, a person will die.

2. This is not true; sociopaths and psychopaths are out for themselves first and foremost- any morality or justice be damned.

3. Just because you desire something does not mean it exists. If you desire something you have to work for it, therefore if (most) humans desire morality and justice then they will have to define what is moral and fair- and then they will have to set laws to ensure that justice is served. And also keep revisiting them to ensure that justice continues to be served.

4. Life's a bitch isn't it?

5. That's assuming that there is an afterlife.

6. That's assuming that there is an afterlife that is based on reward and punishment- and that there is no reincarnation.

Of course this is more about the anti-abortion party line. Shame they don't put as much effort into caring for those who are already born. For many of these people it doesn't matter if the child starves or is raised in an abusive or dysfunctional family- the child only has to be born after which it loses its value.

WorldGoneCrazy #fundie christiannews.net

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