2.1 Exposing the falsehood of "born gay" is the only path to victory
Although gay power appears to be a powerful monolith, it is strikingly fragile because it is built on a lie. The lie is “There’s an organic basis for homosexuality. I was born this way. My sexual orientation is fixed.” If the lie can be countered effectively, gay power will crash.
Before you dismiss this approach remember that one definition of “insanity” is “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” If we could not defeat the gay agenda ten years ago when our supporters were stronger and opponents weaker is there any reason to believe it can be defeated now unless we do something different? It is imperative that we redirect our efforts.
2.2 What if people stopped believing ""born gay"?"
What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices? Rather than viewing homosexuals as victims of their circumstances needing as much protection and support as other oppressed minority groups, society would do a complete about-face and ponder, ""Why are we passing laws that encourage homosexuality"?"
What happens if only some people are converted to believing that gays aren’t born that way? Gays are winning because they have built up such a pattern of recent victories that the next expected victory causes people to support them. If enough people begin seriously to question whether their victory is inevitable, particularly if they understand that gay power is founded on a lie, many will jump off the gay bandwagon and the momentum will reverse. Even a comparatively small shift in public opinion on "born gay" would have an enormous impact on gay influence.
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Rather than viewing homosexuals as victims of their circumstances needing as much protection and support as other oppressed minority groups, society would do a complete about-face and ponder, " "Why are we passing laws that encourage legalize homosexuality"?"
FTFY.
Uh, straight people don't make "choices" about their orientations. If you've spent your life "choosing" not to be gay, you ARE gay. Unless maybe you're bi. Come on, admit it. You'll feel much, much better.
"What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices? "
"..., many will jump off the gay bandwagon and the momentum will reverse. Even a comparatively small shift in public opinion on "born gay" would have an enormous impact on gay influence. "
I love a good delusion of grandeur. Anything to resist reality. As science whittles down ever closer to the correct answer, the one I dislike, one day it will all turn on it's head, you'll see.
"What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices? "
This is not going to happen but even if it did it would not matter. It would still be wrong to deny rights to two consenting adults who are in love, or maybe not in love, with one another. The recent victories for humanity and civil society, not victories solely for gay people, haven't been won because of the fact that gay people were born gay, they were won because you cannot deny a group of people equal protection under the law according to our Constitution.
Well he's not entirely wrong.... indeed, if one could somehow demonstrate that homosexuality is not biological, then the discussion might move away from discrimination and equal protection under the law, as sexual orientation might not be a "suspect class".
But it wouldn't help that much. Just redefine the choice to be "gay" as a religious choice, and then we're talking about religious freedom - something Christian fundies love to abuse themselves.
Riiiight.
Or maybe society will shrug and say "That's as good a choice as any and we'd rather enshrine free will, human dignity, mutual respect and unconditional love. Not soul-quenching hatred based on the desire to fold your fellow man into a horrifyingly constrictive societal mold existing only in the bigot's head.
"why the fuck would it matter if it was a choice?"
It matters a LOT to the Philip Irvins of the world because they think like this:
- If gays really *are* "born that way" it would be *wrong* to persecute them for being gay! Because holding something someone *can't help* against them is UNFAIR!
- But, if gayness IS "caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices" then it's okay to make gays lesser-class citizens for being gay! You're holding them accountable for making the wrong choice! They made their bed, they have to lay in it! If they don't like it, they can get out by choosing to go straight!
I still carry scars from my "choice".
Who in their right mind would choose to be gay in view of the violence and hatred we faced, and still face in certain uncivilised parts of the world?
Even if (and that's a big if) the only factors in homosexuality were environment and not biology, so long as all parties involved are informed, consenting adults, what business is it of yours what homosexuals do? It's not your business at all.
OK, so what's your proof? Scientists have box loads of data which tends to show sexual preference is set by genetics and events in the uterus. What do you have? A wing and a prayer?
And who would voluntarily choose to put up with Phil's bullshit in order to be gay?
What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices?
The same thing as the very choice-based interracial marriage. Face it, you have no reason to deny gays their rights.
Rather than viewing homosexuals as victims of their circumstances needing as much protection and support as other oppressed minority groups, society would do a complete about-face and ponder, ""Why are we passing laws that encourage homosexuality"?"
They'd ask themselves "Why are we still denying gays the right to marry?". Some might even ask "Why didn't we learn our lesson decades ago?" or "Why are the arguments against gay marriage the same as the ones they used to deny interracial couples the right to marry?".
Before you dismiss this approach remember that one definition of “insanity” is “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
You mean like how you keep trying to convince people that homosexuality is not natural (despite thousands of species exhibiting that characteristic)? Okay, go on. Show the world how sane you really are.
Path to victory? You're kidding, right? Gay rights are a certainty, and same sex marriage will eventually become the law of the land in all 50 states. Even top Republicans say so. You're never going to roll back gay rights and force them all back into the closet.
And you know what? It doesn't even matter if people are born gay or if they choose to be. Because either way, homosexuality isn't hurting anyone and if someone were to actually choose to be gay then that should be their right. Sexuality is not a choice anyway, seeing as how "reparative therapy" never works like it would if being gay were simply something someone chooses to do.
There's nothing wrong with same sex attraction and sexual conduct, regardless. Of course being gay, bi, or straight is innate. But the bigots had to attest that, "No, you can get therapy and change!" And so the response that needed to be heard was, "NO, that's bullshit, gay people cannot choose to be straight!" Otherwise it would be a non issue. Would gay people suddenly not be marginalized for being gay, would homophobia disappear, if popular opinion was that one chooses to be gay? No. Why would sane, compassionate people want to dehumanize someone for being gay? Being gay is harmful to no one. Homophobia harms and kills.
The homophobes are losing. Maybe eventually some will accept it and just fuck off, already.
A. It's really a moot point if it's genetic or by choice (it's by genetics) since, free-will and all, jackass.
B. That is not the actual definition of insanity; it's an expression.
Ash, FTW.
"What if people stopped believing 'born gay'?"
Science doesn't work by vote.
On the one hand, there's all this research:
http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/ViewPage.aspx?pageId=74
On the other hand, there's your belief, stated for strategic purposes, otherwise known as an ulterior motive.
Gee, I wonder where I would go for facts?
@Malingspann
"You're holding them accountable for making the wrong choice!"
Well, aside from the fact they they would need to demonstrate that there is something wrong about homosexuality. (Yeah, I know... god said not to. That's not a good enough reason to deny people rights.)
"They made their bed, they have to lay in it!"
Just as long as there's not another man in it.
Even if same sex attraction were a simple choice, we protect many other choices in our society which are unpopular. Religion, fringe political views. As it happens, there have been studies showing that the brains of homosexuals are wired somewhat differently and react to different stimuli than their hetero counterparts. If you want people to believe homosexuality is a choice, here's an idea: gather the psychological and biological evidence that it is. Put up or shut up.
While looking over Yahoo News today, I discovered something very interesting. The most recent surveys say that about 55% of Americans support marriage equality. Another recent survey puts the number of people who believe that same sex attraction is innate at 42%.
The implications of this is that the people of America generally do not care if same sex attraction is innate or not. The real question is, what valid grounds exist to keep marriage equality legally unrecognized? The reason your side is losing Pip is because no one can come up with a convincing answer. They would much rather focus on non-issues like "it will destroy traditional marriage...somehow," "it will lead to people marrying dogs...somehow," and, of course, "being gay isn't an inborn trait!"
2.1 Exposing the falsehood of "born gay" is the only path to victory
Although gay power appears to be a powerful monolith, it is strikingly fragile because it is built on a lie. The lie is “There’s an organic basis for homosexuality. I was born this way. My sexual orientation is fixed.” If the lie can be countered effectively, gay power will crash...
Since there's boatloads of science & stuff to prove you wrong, your "only path to victory" is an illusion. Now, please shut up about the non-issue that is LGBTs and worry about stuff that matters....like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, visiting the prisoners, being peacemakers & therefore, children of God....like the man you claim to worship taught.
Also, even if it was a choice, it's still meaningless because it hurts noone and you just hate it because...
A.) It subverts the Patriarchal/Androcratic paradigm of "Man on top, woman on bottom, man is better, woman makes him sammich".
B.) It grosses you out, particularly if it involves gay men and/or buttsex (gay women tend to get less vitriol due to point A and 'Girl on Girl is hawt!').
For a fundy, homosexuality absolutely MUST be a person's choice. After all, if it isn't a choice, that could mean one of only two things to a fundy, neither of which are even remotely acceptable:
1) Homosexual people WERE meant to be born gay, which means that they've been wrong about hating gays, which means that it's they, not the gays, who are now in danger of suffering Jehovah's wrath;
OR
2) Homosexual people WERE NOT meant to be born gay, yet were born gay anyway, which means that... *gasp!*
...God screwed up. *scary organ chords*
I hate assholes like this. Sexual orientation isn't a choice. I never chose to be bi. Given my religious beliefs at the time, I wouldn't have chosen that. I didn't wake up one morning and proclaim that today, I suck dick. It's simply something I learned to accept about myself, and that acceptance led to a happier life.
Q: What happens if you're obsessive about the gay?
A: You become insane.
Q: What would happen if the gay went away?
A: Your life would have no purpose, so you might as well top yourself.
Q: How do we know the gay is OK?
A: Because Bible God doesn't exist. Only His actual and virtual beardie gullible delusionists gabbling deleriously.
>Exposing the falsehood of "born gay"
Whether true, or not, it's irrelevant. As long as they aren't causing harm to others, or society at large, then it doesn't matter whether they have any conscious choice in their sexual orientation, or not.
The last time I looked, the prevailing scientific opinion was that sexual orientation was fixed. How or why it is fixed is open to debate but it seems to be unchangeable.
If you have other evidence, feel free to present it.
as my favourite writer said, the first right we have as free citizens is the right to define ourselves. whether you have to because you can't help it, or whether it is a choice, you cannot lose that right and remain free.
also, I think this guy wants it to be a choice, because otherwise it will be a real dilemma - allow abortion because it prevents teh ghey or allow gay people to be born and have to tolerate them.
They'll probably want the third option - check foetuses for the gene and if it manifests, force the woman to abort. I've heard of it done with girls - sex determination of the foetus, abortion if female, at gunpoint if needed. That is persecution, not one guy saying you're wrong.
Exposing the falsehood of "born gay" is the only path to victory.
Notice how when conservatives win, everyone else loses? especially religious people who aren't nutcases?
"Exposing the falsehood of "born gay" is the only path to victory"
no, because it doesn't matter if it is a choice, there's nothing wrong with that choice.
Exposing the falsehood of "born gay" is the only path to victory
The problem is there's no way to do that. What you're talking about isn't "exposing the falsehood"; it's selling an idea for which there's no evidence.
2.1. Many studies in twins, conducted by qualified professionals, show that homosexuality has a significant genetic component.
2.2. Then those people would be allowing their desires to trump credible evidence, that is, showing themselves to be homophobic a$$hats.
While it 's true that sexual orientation isn't a choice, it's also true that this shouldn't be the slightest bit relevant to the discussion of homosexual activity being legal. Is there a victim when two consenting adults of the same sex want to be together? No? Then it should be legal. End of Argument. No Victim, No Crime.
Laws are not (or at least should not) be the slightest bit concerned with why you do something, but only whether or not you do it. Stealing is still just as illegal whether you've got medically diagnosed kleptomania or not. Murder is still just as illegal whether you're a medically diagnosed psychopath or not.
If something is illegal and you do it but can prove you had a biological reason you can't help it, the response of the legal system is NOT to make it legal for you to do it despite it still being illegal for everyone else, but to force you to into a treatment program as the sentence.
If you think it's a good idea to hang the fight for gay rights on the biological inescapability of being gay, then look to the example of Alan Turing to see why that's not a good idea. The British government thought this WW2 hero could be "treated" for his homosexuality "problem", and forced him to take hormones he didn't ask for, and the treatment drove him to suicide.
Whether or not you convince a homophobe of the biologically inescapability of being gay, it will have no impact on whether or not they think being gay is somehow wrong. The only reason they claim it's a choice is so they don't have to blame their God for it. (Even though there's plenty of awful horrible things that are perfectly natural so that ship should have sailed ages ago).
I have to ask, what's the problem with choosing homosexuality versus being born gay anyway?
If i'm not mistaken, sexuality rarely fits into very rigid categories. It's more like a spectrum, and most of us are comfortable within a narrow range of that spectrum.
I don't see why choosing homosexuality would be any less valid of an orientation than being born gay.
"You know what I'd like to choose? I'd like to be looked down on by society, branded as a sex fiend and pedophile, disowned by my parents, denied the right to marry the person I love, fired from my job, even beaten and killed outright!"
Makes PERFECT sense.
What if people stopped believing ""born gay"?"
It wouldn't change much, unlike you, most would still think they should have the right to choose it. It's sort of the same as me standing up for your right to follow the religion of your choice. See how that works?
Or are you saying that I should try and get some anti-Christian laws passed? Hey, Christianity is a choice after all - You know that whole "accepting Jesus as your savior" bit. And Christianity has certainly proven to be more harmful than what two adults choose to do with each other.
Do you get where I'm going with this?
See, science pretty much proves that homosexuality has a biological basis, meaning that homosexuals DO NOT choose to be attracted to the same sex. Unless new and CREDIBLE science contradicts the current findings, rational people will continue to dismiss the lie that people choose to be gay.
And quite frankly, even IF people chose their sexual orientation, that has NOTHING to do with whether or not they're entitled to legal protections and the right to enter into the marriage contract.
Part of me actually wishes that sexual orientation were a choice.
*ducks a barrage of rotten fruit* Now, hear me out here , regulars!
I believe that, even if human sexuality were a matter of choice, we who support greater freedom and equal rights for all would eventually win this culture war. In the meantime, we could all choose to be bisexual . Think about it. If it were a choice, straight people would still be choosing to exclude about half the human race, same as gay people would. Wazupwidat?!
@Da Rat Bastid
I sure wish I was Bi. More dating choices & girls are snuggly. Plus, if a gal has a hard time with guys, at least she could relate to the ladies.
Y'know, in a way, we all have Bi tendencies. Perhaps the next step in human evolution to aim for is to foster & develop bisexuality & androgyny. It might even put a big damper on sexism/'gender wars'.
What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that political orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices? Rather than viewing Conservatives as victims of their circumstances needing as much protection and support as other groups, society would do a complete about-face and ponder, ""Why are we passing laws that encourage Conservatism"?"
I had to fix it... but I wonder if Philip would realise the fallaciousness of his original argument?
It's unsettling when people who are supposedly pro-gay rights rely on homophobic jokes.
To the OP: You're bi, get over it.
"What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices?"
I would go right on believing that all sexual orientations are okay, because they're not hurting anyone. (Hell, I might even advocate that we raise kids to be more likely to be gay; since most men have penises and most women have vaginas, it would dramatically reduce the rate of accidental pregnancies.) If the only reason someone isn't homophobic is because they think non-straight people would be straight if only we could, they're not really as accepting as they think they are.
You're still doing the same thing over and over; hating people for how they are born, and expecting them to just stop making you uncomfortable.
Why would anyone choose to be hated, vilified, beaten up, raped and/or killed? Does it sound tempting to you?
We AREN'T passing laws that encourage homosexuality, stupid. We are passing laws protecting human rights.
You are apparently already converted to believing that gays aren't born that way, in opposition with all available scientific evidence and research. Or rather, you have never believed that they are born this way. Gays aren't winning, they are just not losing as much as they used to do.
You've forgotten the first step, dearie; providing evidence that gays are not born this way. You can’t, can you?
"Why are we passing laws that encourage homosexuality"?"
We aren't doing this though, are we? No laws have been passed anywhere to encourage anyone who isn't homosexual to become homosexual.
The only laws passed are those preventing unconstituional discrimination against people who are homosexual.
What would happen if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly discovered a new consensus that sexual orientation is not organically determined but is caused exclusively by a person’s environment and choices?
I would try and figure out why someone should be at fault for something harmless caused by environmental factors. That's like criminalizing people with suntans. After all, tanning isn't much riskier than anything else when you take precautions, it's caused partially by environmental factors and partially by choices, and there's no victim.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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