(=An Anti Gay vs Pro Gay argument desolves into an Eternal Torment vs Annihilation argument of Hell=)
Martin: Curiously the penalty for all sin is the same:
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
(Ezekiel 18:4 [ESV])
Death is the penalty for any sin.
You reject the fact that homosexuality is simply sexual sin merely to justify yourself.
Guglielmo Marinaro: Ah well, if all those souls are going to die, then they won’t be living on in hell to suffer everlasting torment, will they? So that’s some consolation.
You assert that homosexuality is simply sexual sin merely to justify yourself. I reject the “fact” that homosexuality is simply sexual sin, because it isn’t a fact but simply nonsense.
Martin: Death for the soul of a sinner means an eternity of torment. Keep pretending while you can, one day you'll have to admit you're wrong.
Guglielmo Marinaro: Death does not mean an eternity of torment – except perhaps once again in your Martinian Newspeak lexicon – and an attempt to read such a concept into that verse from Ezekiel is eisegesis par excellence.
You may keep on repeating your ignorant nonsense till kingdom come, and I will continue to recognize it as ignorant nonsense, nothing more. As you have yourself recently observed, it is tedious to have to repeat the same thing over and over again, but – who knows? – God may use it to enlighten you and get you to repudiate your errors.
Martin: Curious then that Jesus speaks of two options, eternal life and eternal punishment:
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:46 [ESV])
Guglielmo Marinaro: Quite apart from uncertainty regarding the meaning of the Greek word “aionios”, which has been translated in English Bibles by the word “eternal” or “everlasting”, but which does not necessarily mean “of endless duration” – in the Greek Septuagint it is applied, for example, to things which have long since come to an end, e.g. the Aaronic priesthood (Numbers 25:13) and the gates of the Temple at Jerusalem (Psalm 24:7, 9) – it is interesting that Jesus contrasts “eternal punishment” with “eternal LIFE”, which seems clearly to imply that those who go to “eternal punishment” will NOT live on for ever.
This is confirmed by Jesus’s admonition, “Do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28)
Martin: So you're saying that eternal life doesn't last for ever? I think you'd be hard pressed to maintain that.
As for Matthew 10, it is notable that the same word is not used for the act of one who is able to kill the body but not the soul and the one who is able to destroy both body and soul.
Guglielmo Marinaro : No, I am not saying that eternal life does not last for ever, nor am I implying that. But if the belief that it does has no stronger basis than the use of a Greek word which is applied in the Septuagint to a priesthood which no longer exists and to the doors of a temple which was razed to the ground centuries ago, it rests on a pretty precarious foundation.
Something which has been destroyed no longer exists. If anything, “destroy” bears an even stronger connotation of annihilation than “kill”. The verse in Matthew 10 which speaks of the destruction of both soul and body can, like so many biblical texts, be pulled around in Procrustean fashion to bring it into apparent conformity with preformed dogma, but as the New Testament scholar Kim Papaioannou observes, “It appears that the attempt to understand the meaning of ?p???sa? in Matthew 10:28 as something other than ‘destruction’ in its most obvious meaning is based more on theological considerations than linguistic evidence.” He adds that this conclusion is supported by a survey of the usage of the different forms of that verb in the Synoptic Gospels, elsewhere in the New Testament and in the Septuagint.
Martin: The same word is used of eternal life as to eternal punishment, so if one is not to experience eternal punishment neither will anyone experience eternal life. It matters not what a man who thinks he has invented a whole new understanding of the Bible says
Guglielmo Marinaro: And the very same adjective (a??????) is used of the Aaronic priesthood, which no longer exists, and of the doors of the Temple at Jerusalem, which was razed to the ground centuries ago.
Martin: And the Septuagint was translated hundreds of years before the New Testament was written. Nor is it inspired, the translators were capable of error.
The punishment and life clearly last for the same length of time.
Guglielmo Marinaro: “And the Septuagint was translated hundreds of years before the New Testament was written.”
So what? It is the same Greek adjective, and the Septuagint was good enough for Paul, since it was the version from which he habitually quoted in his epistles.
“Nor is it inspired, the translators were capable of error.”
As were the original biblical writers, and as were all the translators who have produced every translation of the Bible ever made, from the Vulgate to the NIV.
“The punishment and life clearly last for the same length of time.”
Clearly to you perhaps, but clearly not clearly to everyone else.
Martin: You didn't realise languages change over time?
The original biblical writers were caused by God to write as they did, their writing is without error for it is breathed out by God.
When the same word is used of two things in the same sentence it is clear to everyone that the same meaning is given to the two instances. Everyone except you apparently.
Martin, Premier 9 Comments
[11/22/2018 11:44:49 AM]
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